Real world stall speeds with various wings. (2024)

Hello,

I am planning on starting to build a Breezy in about six months. I
really enjoy flying at about 50-55MPH. I want to make sure that I
choose a wing that provides sufficient margin between my desired cruise
speed, and the stall speed. It would be much appreciated if those with
flying Breezy's would respond to this post with your wing type, your
flying weight, and your stall speed. If enough folks respond I will
consolidate the information into a table and post it to the files
section of this form so it is easily accessible to everyone.

Thanks a bunch,
Bryan

Brian,

We are usingJ-3 Cub wings and are keeping our gross weight to 1320 lbs. The standardBreezy wing is that of the Piper PA-12. If you use the Piper Cub, thePiper PA-12 or the Piper Super Cub wing you have the same performance but thestructure is heavier on the PA-18 and a bit lighter on the J-3.

There aremany other wings that should work such as the Aeronca, Tayorcraft, Stinson,etc. We used the Cub wings because they were available at a lowcost. We also used a Lycoming O-290-G engine because it wasavailable. That gives us more power than we need but it is stillreasonably close to the Continental C-90 that is recommended. We expect tohave better cling performance and to cruz at a lower RPM thus getting about thesame fuel economy.

We modifiedthe overhead structure to take the Cub wings and PA-18 lift struts. Wealso moved the engine forward a littleto compensate for the addedweight. We are using a 12 gal wing tank in each wing and a small headertank in the center section. We have a 36 inch center section so we have acouple of feet of additional wing span.

We arelimiting our seating to two people because we want our Breezy to be light sportqualified. We are installing dual controls so people can be checked out inthe airplane by an instructor. We are also installing a lever operatedbrake to works on both main wheels at the same time. That is much like thePiper Tri-Pacer brake system. We will have a radio andintercom,

Dick Pingrey

louis palmenteri

Dick,
Thanks for all the good info I have a real nice breezy fuselage an I want to buy a pa-18 wing kit and build new wings. Iam planning on using an M-14P engine. (just Kidding) my breezy is set up for a O-320 dynafocal mount but I have to figure out what else will fit since I think that is overkill. Do you know what else fits a dynafocal mount? O-235 maybe? O-290 or are they all conical? I cant wait to get started on the breezy I am finishing up a RV-10 right now but as soon as I'm done I will start the breezy.

Lou Palmenteri

To: breezybuilders@...
From: rjpingrey@...
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 08:05:57 -0700
Subject: Re: [breezybuilders] Real world stall speeds with various wings.

Brian,

We are using J-3 Cub wings and are keeping our gross weight to 1320 lbs. The standard Breezy wing is that of the Piper PA-12. If you use the Piper Cub, the Piper PA-12 or the Piper Super Cub wing you have the same performance but the structure is heavier on the PA-18 and a bit lighter on the J-3.

There are many other wings that should work such as the Aeronca, Tayorcraft, Stinson, etc. We used the Cub wings because they were available at a low cost. We also used a Lycoming O-290-G engine because it was available. That gives us more power than we need but it is still reasonably close to the Continental C-90 that is recommended. We expect to have better cling performance and to cruz at a lower RPM thus getting about the same fuel economy.

We modified the overhead structure to take the Cub wings and PA-18 lift struts. We also moved the engine forward a littleto compensate for the added weight. We are using a 12 gal wing tank in each wing and a small header tank in the center section. We have a 36 inch center section so we have a couple of feet of additional wing span.

We are limiting our seating to two people because we want our Breezy to be light sport qualified. We are installing dual controls so people can be checked out in the airplane by an instructor. We are also installing a lever operated brake to works on both main wheels at the same time. That is much like the Piper Tri-Pacer brake system. We will have a radio and intercom,

Dick Pingrey

----- Original Message -----

From: schlingerb

To: breezybuilders@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:28 PM

Subject: [breezybuilders] Real world stall speeds with various wings.

Hello,

I am planning on starting to build a Breezy in about six months. I
really enjoy flying at about 50-55MPH. I want to make sure that I
choose a wing that provides sufficient margin between my desired cruise
speed, and the stall speed. It would be much appreciated if those with
flying Breezy's would respond to this post with your wing type, your
flying weight, and your stall speed. If enough folks respond I will
consolidate the information into a table and post it to the files
section of this form so it is easily accessible to everyone.

Thanks a bunch,
Bryan

before someone else does Find the job of your dreams

Dick,

Sounds like you have a pretty fun airplane in the making. I am quite
interested in getting some data on actual stall speeds of aircraft
that are already flying with various wings. If you, or any of the
other group members, have an aircraft that is flying your wing type,
flying weight, and stall speed would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Bryan

--- In breezybuilders@..., "Richard Pingrey"
<rjpingrey@...> wrote:

Brian,
We are using J-3 Cub wings and are keeping our gross weight

to 1320 lbs. The standard Breezy wing is that of the Piper PA-12.
If you use the Piper Cub, the Piper PA-12 or the Piper Super Cub wing
you have the same performance but the structure is heavier on the PA-
18 and a bit lighter on the J-3.

There are many other wings that should work such as the

Aeronca, Tayorcraft, Stinson, etc. We used the Cub wings because
they were available at a low cost. We also used a Lycoming O-290-G
engine because it was available. That gives us more power than we
need but it is still reasonably close to the Continental C-90 that is
recommended. We expect to have better cling performance and to cruz
at a lower RPM thus getting about the same fuel economy.

We modified the overhead structure to take the Cub wings

and PA-18 lift struts. We also moved the engine forward a little to
compensate for the added weight. We are using a 12 gal wing tank in
each wing and a small header tank in the center section. We have a
36 inch center section so we have a couple of feet of additional wing
span.

We are limiting our seating to two people because we want

our Breezy to be light sport qualified. We are installing dual
controls so people can be checked out in the airplane by an
instructor. We are also installing a lever operated brake to works
on both main wheels at the same time. That is much like the Piper
Tri-Pacer brake system. We will have a radio and intercom,

Dick Pingrey
----- Original Message -----
From: schlingerb
To: breezybuilders@...
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:28 PM
Subject: [breezybuilders] Real world stall speeds with various

wings.

Hello,

I am planning on starting to build a Breezy in about six months.

I

really enjoy flying at about 50-55MPH. I want to make sure that I
choose a wing that provides sufficient margin between my desired

cruise

speed, and the stall speed. It would be much appreciated if those

with

flying Breezy's would respond to this post with your wing type,

your

flying weight, and your stall speed. If enough folks respond I

will

consolidate the information into a table and post it to the files
section of this form so it is easily accessible to everyone.

Thanks a bunch,
Bryan

Ben & Marigene Scarborough

You might want to ask GaryRead about the cruise speed on the Breezy Biplane. An extra wing mightgive you that slow speed. Mine will cruise a lot faster than 50-55.(Outran a J-5 one time - and it will stay right up with a Stearman.) Imake sure I stay above 50 on approach. Anything less will drop it in likea rock. However, I have been able to see40 on the speedo right attouchdown if I'm light and do everything just right. I also land uphillevery time at my home strip and that helps slow things down.

Good luck! --BenScarborough N2011L

breezybuilders

The Breezy Biplane flies S L O W. Like all Breezy's you fly it truly
by the seat of your pants. I am honest when I tell you I rarely look
at the instruments when I fly a Breezy.

Obvioulsy there is plenty of drag with the biplane. The advantage the
biplane has over other Breezy's I guess (besides the cool look it has
when its in the air) is the short take off roll. It actually
surprises you how fast it gets off, especially solo.

I would guess the stall speed to be around 35 to 40, it just hangs
on. Like I said I never look at the airspeed indicator, how acurate
is it at that speed anyway? The cruise speed is 50 to 55, only
because it is uncomfortable above that speed. It would do 60 or so
but the question is why? You just burn more fuel, and comfort is
everything. In Florida I fly it with flip flops, shorts and a tank
top with sun screen. Buzzing the boats around the islands off St Pete
is a hoot. Flying right on the deck sneaking up on the skinny dippers
is fun too!

We used Aeronca wings (pre-war Chief on the top and post-war Champ on
the bottom). They are the same airfoil, the only difference is the
aileron design. I am often asked the best wing to use on a Breezy. I
would say stick with the Cub or Champ airfoil and you wont go wrong.
Flaps? Why bother!? Think of it this way, which flies better at 50
miles and hour: a Cub or a Cessna 150?

Gary Frierson owns the Biplane now and lets me fly it. It's over 25
years old and looks great. He is at Sun n' Fun this week with it if
any of you are there and want to see it.

If we love flying so much why are we in a hurry to get there?

--- In breezybuilders@..., "Ben & Marigene Scarborough"
<bscarb@...> wrote:

You might want to ask Gary Read about the cruise speed on the

Breezy Biplane. An extra wing might give you that slow speed. Mine
will cruise a lot faster than 50-55. (Outran a J-5 one time - and it
will stay right up with a Stearman.) I make sure I stay above 50 on
approach. Anything less will drop it in like a rock. However, I
have been able to see 40 on the speedo right at touchdown if I'm
light and do everything just right. I also land uphill every time at
my home strip and that helps slow things down.

Good luck! --Ben Scarborough N2011L

----- Original Message -----
From: schlingerb
To: breezybuilders@...
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:28 PM
Subject: [breezybuilders] Real world stall speeds with various

wings.

Hello,

I am planning on starting to build a Breezy in about six months.

I

really enjoy flying at about 50-55MPH. I want to make sure that I
choose a wing that provides sufficient margin between my desired

cruise

speed, and the stall speed. It would be much appreciated if those

with

flying Breezy's would respond to this post with your wing type,

your

flying weight, and your stall speed. If enough folks respond I

will

consolidate the information into a table and post it to the files
section of this form so it is easily accessible to everyone.

Thanks a bunch,
Bryan

--------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9/1364 - Release Date:

4/7/2008 6:38 PM

Lou,

I am quitesure that the O-290 and the O-235 take the same mount. A quick call to oneof your FBO should confirm that. O-290G engines are quite cheep but itprobably takes a couple of thousand dollars to make the conversion. O-290and )-235 cam shafts are hard to come by to make sure a good one comes with yourengine.

Dick

Brian,

That is kindof a difficult question because the are so many variables. Adding vortexgenerators would reduce the stall speed by quite a lot. How much air ispassing over the wing from the prop is a factor for slow speed and stall as itwing warp, flaps and other conditions.

Locally thereis a super cub designed for very short field take off and landings. Incalm conditions it will take off and land in about 20 feet. It has astandard Cub airfoil but it also has a slotted leading edge, vortex generatorsand large flaps. Additionally, it has a Nitro injected engine that givesit a great deal of thrust for a short period of time. I have watch it takeoff and land in just about its own length with no wind.

Dick

MARK MCLAUGHLIN

Thank you this is exactly the sort of information that I am looking
for, real world information for flying aircraft.

Thanks again,
Bryan

--- In breezybuilders@..., "breezybuilders" <gwread@...>
wrote:

The Breezy Biplane flies S L O W. Like all Breezy's you fly it

truly

by the seat of your pants. I am honest when I tell you I rarely

look

at the instruments when I fly a Breezy.

Obvioulsy there is plenty of drag with the biplane. The advantage

the

biplane has over other Breezy's I guess (besides the cool look it

has

when its in the air) is the short take off roll. It actually
surprises you how fast it gets off, especially solo.

I would guess the stall speed to be around 35 to 40, it just hangs
on. Like I said I never look at the airspeed indicator, how acurate
is it at that speed anyway? The cruise speed is 50 to 55, only
because it is uncomfortable above that speed. It would do 60 or so
but the question is why? You just burn more fuel, and comfort is
everything. In Florida I fly it with flip flops, shorts and a tank
top with sun screen. Buzzing the boats around the islands off St

Pete

is a hoot. Flying right on the deck sneaking up on the skinny

dippers

is fun too!

We used Aeronca wings (pre-war Chief on the top and post-war Champ

on

the bottom). They are the same airfoil, the only difference is the
aileron design. I am often asked the best wing to use on a Breezy.

I

would say stick with the Cub or Champ airfoil and you wont go

wrong.

Flaps? Why bother!? Think of it this way, which flies better at 50
miles and hour: a Cub or a Cessna 150?

Gary Frierson owns the Biplane now and lets me fly it. It's over 25
years old and looks great. He is at Sun n' Fun this week with it if
any of you are there and want to see it.

If we love flying so much why are we in a hurry to get there?

--- In breezybuilders@..., "Ben & Marigene Scarborough"
<bscarb@> wrote:

You might want to ask Gary Read about the cruise speed on the

Breezy Biplane. An extra wing might give you that slow speed.

Mine

will cruise a lot faster than 50-55. (Outran a J-5 one time - and

it

will stay right up with a Stearman.) I make sure I stay above 50

on

approach. Anything less will drop it in like a rock. However, I
have been able to see 40 on the speedo right at touchdown if I'm
light and do everything just right. I also land uphill every time

at

my home strip and that helps slow things down.

Good luck! --Ben Scarborough N2011L

----- Original Message -----
From: schlingerb
To: breezybuilders@...
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:28 PM
Subject: [breezybuilders] Real world stall speeds with various

wings.

Hello,

I am planning on starting to build a Breezy in about six

months.

I

really enjoy flying at about 50-55MPH. I want to make sure that

I

choose a wing that provides sufficient margin between my

desired

cruise

speed, and the stall speed. It would be much appreciated if

those

with

flying Breezy's would respond to this post with your wing type,

your

flying weight, and your stall speed. If enough folks respond I

will

consolidate the information into a table and post it to the

files

section of this form so it is easily accessible to everyone.

Thanks a bunch,
Bryan

------------------------------------------------------------------

--

----------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9/1364 - Release

Date:

4/7/2008 6:38 PM

Dick,

You seem to have missed the point of my question. There are
literally thousands of variable that affect stall speed. My question
is not a difficult question to answer, because I did not ask what
variables affect stall speed. I asked a very specific question, if
you have a flying Breezy what wing are you using, what is your stall
speed, and at what weight? Discussions about items that affect stall
speed, and what wing people are using on projects they are building,
and how much someone hopes their airplane will weigh when they are
done building it, are interesting. I love to talk about such
things. However, they are answers to completely different questions.

I have received a few data points in response to my question. As I
get more I will continue to add them to a spreadsheet that I am
constructing. Once the acquisition rate tapers off I will post the
spreadsheet to the files section of this group so others can use it
to guide their decision making process.

Bryan

--- In breezybuilders@..., "Richard Pingrey"
<rjpingrey@...> wrote:

Brian,
That is kind of a difficult question because the are so

many variables. Adding vortex generators would reduce the stall
speed by quite a lot. How much air is passing over the wing from the
prop is a factor for slow speed and stall as it wing warp, flaps and
other conditions.

Locally there is a super cub designed for very short field

take off and landings. In calm conditions it will take off and land
in about 20 feet. It has a standard Cub airfoil but it also has a
slotted leading edge, vortex generators and large flaps.
Additionally, it has a Nitro injected engine that gives it a great
deal of thrust for a short period of time. I have watch it take off
and land in just about its own length with no wind.

Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: schlingerb
To: breezybuilders@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 6:35 PM
Subject: [breezybuilders] Re: Real world stall speeds with

various wings.

Dick,

Sounds like you have a pretty fun airplane in the making. I am

quite

interested in getting some data on actual stall speeds of

aircraft

that are already flying with various wings. If you, or any of the
other group members, have an aircraft that is flying your wing

type,

flying weight, and stall speed would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Bryan

--- In breezybuilders@..., "Richard Pingrey"
<rjpingrey@> wrote:
>
> Brian,
> We are using J-3 Cub wings and are keeping our gross weight
to 1320 lbs. The standard Breezy wing is that of the Piper PA-12.
If you use the Piper Cub, the Piper PA-12 or the Piper Super Cub

wing

you have the same performance but the structure is heavier on the

PA-

18 and a bit lighter on the J-3.
> There are many other wings that should work such as the
Aeronca, Tayorcraft, Stinson, etc. We used the Cub wings because
they were available at a low cost. We also used a Lycoming O-290-

G

engine because it was available. That gives us more power than we
need but it is still reasonably close to the Continental C-90

that is

recommended. We expect to have better cling performance and to

cruz

at a lower RPM thus getting about the same fuel economy.
> We modified the overhead structure to take the Cub wings
and PA-18 lift struts. We also moved the engine forward a little

to

compensate for the added weight. We are using a 12 gal wing tank

in

each wing and a small header tank in the center section. We have

a

36 inch center section so we have a couple of feet of additional

wing

span.
> We are limiting our seating to two people because we want
our Breezy to be light sport qualified. We are installing dual
controls so people can be checked out in the airplane by an
instructor. We are also installing a lever operated brake to

works

on both main wheels at the same time. That is much like the Piper
Tri-Pacer brake system. We will have a radio and intercom,
> Dick Pingrey
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: schlingerb
> To: breezybuilders@...
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:28 PM
> Subject: [breezybuilders] Real world stall speeds with various
wings.
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I am planning on starting to build a Breezy in about six

months.

I
> really enjoy flying at about 50-55MPH. I want to make sure that

I

> choose a wing that provides sufficient margin between my

desired

cruise
> speed, and the stall speed. It would be much appreciated if

those

with
> flying Breezy's would respond to this post with your wing type,
your
> flying weight, and your stall speed. If enough folks respond I
will
> consolidate the information into a table and post it to the

files

> section of this form so it is easily accessible to everyone.
>
> Thanks a bunch,
> Bryan
>

Brian,

Your point iswell taken. Our Breezy isn't yet flying so I can't answer your questionfor our Breezy with J-3 Cub wings. If theCub wings on the Breezy arerigged the same as they are on aPiper Cub theyshould stall at thespeed indicated by Piper for the J-3. The problem with that is that thevariables will exist and they will change the stall speed. Additionally,air speed indicators are not at all accurate at the low range when a stall isoccurring. What you read may not be what you are actuallygetting.

Dick

louis palmenteri

ok guys,

I've decided not to complete the breezy project I bought last month because I just don't have the time. I am putting it up for sale but before I go to Barnstormers I thought I'd put it up here in the newsgroup first. The project has a dynafocal mount for a lycoming. It is built to accept pa-18 wings, probobly others will fit too. The welding is absolutely beautiful and straight. I think all of the welding is done except for empenage attatch. It come with brand new clevelands and big 8.00 x 8 tires. and what i think is a cesna nose gear with tire.brand new univair spring type super cub gear and all the struts and strut ends(new),m it also has a full set of cub tail feathers in great shape not sure if J-3 or super cub, need to be covered. it is set up with 2 sticks instead of wheel. the rudder pedals are installed as are the control stick linkage. make me an offer and keep it reasonable. I dont give things away but I will cut somebody a good deal.
call 940 627 9143 if you want to talk, I live in ft. Worth and can help load.

Lou Palmenteri

To: breezybuilders@...
From: schlingerb@...
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:32:38 +0000
Subject: [breezybuilders] Re: Real world stall speeds with various wings.

Dick,

You seem to have missed the point of my question. There are
literally thousands of variable that affect stall speed. My question
is not a difficult question to answer, because I did not ask what
variables affect stall speed. I asked a very specific question, if
you have a flying Breezy what wing are you using, what is your stall
speed, and at what weight? Discussions about items that affect stall
speed, and what wing people are using on projects they are building,
and how much someone hopes their airplane will weigh when they are
done building it, are interesting. I love to talk about such
things. However, they are answers to completely different questions.

I have received a few data points in response to my question. As I
get more I will continue to add them to a spreadsheet that I am
constructing. Once the acquisition rate tapers off I will post the
spreadsheet to the files section of this group so others can use it
to guide their decision making process.

Bryan

--- In breezybuilders@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Pingrey"
..> wrote:
>
> Brian,
> That is kind of a difficult question because the are so
many variables. Adding vortex generators would reduce the stall
speed by quite a lot. How much air is passing over the wing from the
prop is a factor for slow speed and stall as it wing warp, flaps and
other conditions.
> Locally there is a super cub designed for very short field
take off and landings. In calm conditions it will take off and land
in about 20 feet. It has a standard Cub airfoil but it also has a
slotted leading edge, vortex generators and large flaps.
Additionally, it has a Nitro injected engine that gives it a great
deal of thrust for a short period of time. I have watch it take off
and land in just about its own length with no wind.
> Dick
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: schlingerb
> To: breezybuilders@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 6:35 PM
> Subject: [breezybuilders] Re: Real world stall speeds with
various wings.
>
>
> Dick,
>
> Sounds like you have a pretty fun airplane in the making. I am
quite
> interested in getting some data on actual stall speeds of
aircraft
> that are already flying with various wings. If you, or any of the
> other group members, have an aircraft that is flying your wing
type,
> flying weight, and stall speed would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Bryan
>
> --- In breezybuilders@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Pingrey"
> wrote:
> >
> > Brian,
> > We are using J-3 Cub wings and are keeping our gross weight
> to 1320 lbs. The standard Breezy wing is that of the Piper PA-12.
> If you use the Piper Cub, the Piper PA-12 or the Piper Super Cub
wing
> you have the same performance but the structure is heavier on the
PA-
> 18 and a bit lighter on the J-3.
> > There are many other wings that should work such as the
> Aeronca, Tayorcraft, Stinson, etc. We used the Cub wings because
> they were available at a low cost. We also used a Lycoming O-290-
G
> engine because it was available. That gives us more power than we
> need but it is still reasonably close to the Continental C-90
that is
> recommended. We expect to have better cling performance and to
cruz
> at a lower RPM thus getting about the same fuel economy.
> > We modified the overhead structure to take the Cub wings
> and PA-18 lift struts. We also moved the engine forward a little
to
> compensate for the added weight. We are using a 12 gal wing tank
in
> each wing and a small header tank in the center section. We have
a
> 36 inch center section so we have a couple of feet of additional
wing
> span.
> > We are limiting our seating to two people because we want
> our Breezy to be light sport qualified. We are installing dual
> controls so people can be checked out in the airplane by an
> instructor. We are also installing a lever operated brake to
works
> on both main wheels at the same time. That is much like the Piper
> Tri-Pacer brake system. We will have a radio and intercom,
> > Dick Pingrey
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: schlingerb
> > To: breezybuilders@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:28 PM
> > Subject: [breezybuilders] Real world stall speeds with various
> wings.
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am planning on starting to build a Breezy in about six
months.
> I
> > really enjoy flying at about 50-55MPH. I want to make sure that
I
> > choose a wing that provides sufficient margin between my
desired
> cruise
> > speed, and the stall speed. It would be much appreciated if
those
> with
> > flying Breezy's would respond to this post with your wing type,
> your
> > flying weight, and your stall speed. If enough folks respond I
> will
> > consolidate the information into a table and post it to the
files
> > section of this form so it is easily accessible to everyone.
> >
> > Thanks a bunch,
> > Bryan
> >
>

Grab it. You dream job is up for grabs.

MARK MCLAUGHLIN

Lou; do you have any pictures of the Breezy fuselage, etc. It could help sell it. Mark

louis palmenteri wrote: